Ripples

[pt_tangles]

I am reading the last couple of chapters of the Heart of Wicca, and I came across a sentiment that I seem to see around a lot lately. It's an explanation of Karma that seems just as short sighted as the views that the author is complaining about. I feel that I am being surrounded by the philosophy of, "We are all connected ... except when something bad happens."

I understand that extreme pacifism is distasteful to a lot of people. I also get that people who use karma or the Rede as an excuse for inaction are in for a really rude awakening one day. But, does that mean that when tragedy does strike that it is outside of karma or destiny or whathaveyou?

I really don't think so.

I know that no one likes to think that suffering is anything other than just random occurrence or as someone used to so often shout at me, 'shit just happens'. It's not tasteful to tell people who are going through hard times that their suffering very likely is for a purpose. No one wants to hear that. But, it doesn't mean that it isn't true.

To paraphrase Ellen Cannon Reed, "Being attacked is not part of the Goddess' plan." Why not? If we believe that we are all connected to one another to make up a web of life and magic, then why is it so hard to grasp the idea that not everything that happens in your life is something that revolves around you and your journey?

I have learned a lot from other people as well as my own life. I didn't need to have an abusive boyfriend or parents who threw me out on the street to see the effect it has on people.

Let's take the example of someone being beaten to a bloody pulp. Maybe it is seeing your bravery in dealing with the pain, and healing that leads someone else to illumination. Maybe it shows the orderly at the hospital that even victims of violent crime can be courageous. Maybe it finally sinks into his head that violence doesn't make you strong.

Maybe it helps the nurse find the strength to leave her abusive boyfriend, even if only by illustrating to her what is very likely in her future if she doesn't.

And maybe it shows you reserves of strength that you didn't know you had. Shows you that you can deal with something that you thought beyond your abilities, and that there is life on the other end.

Bad things happen. People are hurt, and sometimes they die. Just because things aren't pleasant doesn't mean that they aren't there to help us grow.

I think a lot of people are stuck rebelling against the idea that "God is testing you".  Even that tired platitude of faith wasn't designed to be a cop out.  It was designed to help people find the strength to move forward, no matter what was standing in their way.  Is that something that is really so terrible that it absolutely has to be false?

I believe that all life is connected.  I believe that our actions echo through the web.  And sometimes, I believe that our lives and our troubles can help to start the ripples in someone else's pond.

And I don't think that is a bad thing.

Comments

[droops.livejournal.com]

Funny, the title of the thread made a Grateful Dead song pop into my head.

But I can't disagree with you. I sort of keep expecting the shoe to drop on me at some point. Though the accounts never do seem to balance out, or at least it doesn't seem like it. Was that Reed's book that you were reading, btw?

[pt_tangles]

Yeah, it was. I just got it from Amazon as a part of my delayed order (they are still looking for a Valiente book for me). I read it in the tub when I am unable to sleep (not that she's boring, of course ;)

--Phae

[sanacrow.livejournal.com]

RE: The concept that is often called 'karma' in the Western occult scene...

At it's heart, it's simply the basic rules of cause and effect. It's not a giant scale that balances out whacks and kudos - it's a simplified way of saying that past deeds affect future events. But most of it's effects are on a universal scale.

We can be subject to the effects of actions and choices not our own, and events can be set in motion by other causes that we have absolutely no control over. Our only control in those situations is in how we choose to respond to those events. Our choices, in turn, become "causes" themselves and affect the future choices available to us and to others. The goal isn't to "balance Karma" (Karma is a natural force, like gravity. It's *always* balanced.), it's to make the best choices that we possibly can, working toward making better choices available in the future... for ourselves, and for everyone else as well.

[droops.livejournal.com]

If karma is always balanced, then wouldn't that mean that for every good action you do, a bad one must occur to balance it?

I've always thought of it as a balance in one's account, so to speak, but you're saying it differently. What you're indicating is obviously very simple, and basically physics (cause and effect). There is no divine element in this though, at least as far as I can see. It just IS. Kind of a lonely feeling though.

I agree the control is usually just our response to the situation. You can't go back in time and change things obviously.

I have a lot more thoughts on the subject, but right now my brain is mush for some reason and everytime I type something I end up erasing it because it sounds like crap. So I'll shut up and just say thanks for the thoughtful post.

[dbmyrrha.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with you. It has nothing to do with "karma" (which is an eastern idea which is vastly misunderstood and bastardized in western Newage thought)but more like orlog, which is the (Norse) idea that we make choices, and those choices have consequences. I don't believe that God/dess is out to "test" us, but I do believe that our actions have consequences, and sometimes we are caught up in the consequences of another's actions (e.g. another person drives drunk, hits us, we are maimed for life.)However, even here, we happened to make the choice that put us right in that place at that time. There are lessons we learn because of things we did, and there are lessons we learn because we just happen to get in the way of another person's actions. It's not really "fair," but all things happen for a reason. If we are really part of the web, then we are connected to all other people and occasionally become part of their destiny, through no intentional/conscious choice of our own. This does not mean we have to passively accept other people's shit, though. The lesson may be to learn when to snip a thread or divert the web around an obstacle. Either we learn the lessons handed to us by the Universe, or we don't. if not, there's always next time.

[pt_tangles]

Exactly.

--Phae

[sanacrow.livejournal.com]

I started to type out a reply... then had the brilliant idea to read the other replies first...

So now I'll just point to DB's post and nod enthusiastically. (And she said it a lot better than I probably would have.)

[dbmyrrha.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the compliment.

You are a fine writer, Sana, I'm sure your reply would have been eloquent.

*hugs*

[pjvj.livejournal.com]

I fall into the "shit just happens" category, but it is a modified version of that phrase. Some shit does just happen. It is because I believe we are connected by the web that I feel this way. Others' choices and actions will sometimes cause bad things to happen to me without my inviting it. Other "shit" occurs because of bad choices made by myself (and just as often as others' choices effects ripple my way, my poor choices effects ripple out to others).

I do not personally hold a belief that all shit happens "for a purpose", though, if by that phrase you mean a good an noble purpose. I do believe the person in the midst of the shit has a choice to turn the experience to a good and noble purpose, but I don't believe the purpose is the reason for the happening. I also believe the a good and decent person will sometimes not choose the "good and noble" purpose behind the shit and that is always a failing, but merely sometimes exhaustion, or desire for "the easy way out" or whatever. Good and decent people have their bad and indecent moments at times, from what I've seen.

So we (you and I) kind of agree on the outer parameters of this issue, but veer off on our own in the particulars. :-)

[gessatrude.livejournal.com]

I think that could probably be summed up as "shit happens for a reason, but it doesn't always have a purpose".

Its like looking at the grand scheme and identifying cause and effect relationships for all the things that happen. Hence, all things have a reason they happened. But just because it happened, doesn't mean that was in "the plan", thus, not all shit happens has a purpose.

[pjvj.livejournal.com]

>>>"shit happens for a reason, but it doesn't always have a purpose".<<

Good summation. And so fewer words than I used!

[gessatrude.livejournal.com]

Which is funny. Usually I'm the verbose one ;-)

[pjvj.livejournal.com]

>>>I also believe the a good and decent person will sometimes not choose the "good and noble" purpose behind the shit and that is always a failing,<<<<

Should read: "I also believe the a good and decent person will sometimes not choose the "good and noble" purpose behind the shit and that is NOT always a failing"

Even with the chance to edit I miss things. Damn. lol

[pt_tangles]

I don't really think that every detail of our lives is predetermined, but I do tend to think that there is a guiding thread out there that we follow.

For example, if you are hit by a car, I don't think that that was decided before you were born. But that you are in harm's way at that point in time? Maybe. As you said, the choices that put you there could have been brewing for a great deal of time.

It's a tough thought to sort out. It tends to make my mind bend into uncomfortable positions ... sort of like trying to figure out reincarnation in non-linear time was.

--Phae

[gessatrude.livejournal.com]

I think part of that that people don't take into consideration (and here's where my head starts to pound), is that you are talking about not just one life.

In the getting hit by the car example...for example, you have the person being hit, the person doing the hitting, anyone that may have been in the car with the person doing the hitting, and anyone who witnesses the accident.

And here's where your ripples come in too.

Maybe you weren't ordained to be hit by the car, maybe the driver was ordained to cause some terrible drama, and you just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

For every example of pre-ordination of these things, there are just as many of total randomness. In the Norse tradition for example, you have orlog and hamingja. Basically fate and luck. They are both your own and representative of all your ancestors before you. You can build them up and lose them. So following that sort of though pattern it makes everything both "ordained/fated" and "luck of the draw" all at once.

And that's why my head hurts. :)

[gessatrude.livejournal.com]

I tend to agree with you there.

Though I am just as guilty as anyone for thinking that if one more person said "its in gods plan" when my daughter died, I'd have killed them and started a few more ripples.

Looking back on it, I can see where it pushed me, how it was necessary for me to be where I am at, and the affect me being here has had on other people. But during that time, it was easier to rail against the fates.

I don't think its false...but in the middle of it, does anyone *really* want to be the example?

[pt_tangles]

To be fair, I don't think that any plan or fate is that precise. I think that the fates of our lives are built as we live them.

That said, if we weren't meant to live through and grow from hardship and suffering, then we wouldn't be here. We'd still be on the other side feasting and dancing. IMWV, anyways.

No one wants to be the example for someone else. And I think it is not really a comfort to anyone to tell them that their suffering can be an opportunity as well. I just usually try to keep it in mind when the crappy stuff happens.

--Phae

[gessatrude.livejournal.com]

True enough. No fate probably didn't mean to kill her on that day...but I still wouldn't be where I am now, if she were still alive. And that was kind of my point.

Honestly, I'm not sure why we're here, and thinking about why *I* specifically am here, gives me a headache. :-)

Hopefully not too much crappy stuff is going on though. *hugs*

[pt_tangles]

Nah, I'm actually doing pretty well now. It is just one of those things that catch on my mind when I can't sleep ;)

--Phae

[brock-tn.livejournal.com]

I'm going to have to go back and look at what Ellen wrote there. She may have been responding to the all-too common tendency we see among some people in the Craft community to see any adversity in their lives as the product of some malicious force directed specifically at them. You know, the old "OMG!!!WTF!!!BBQ!!! My flowers died! Someone must have cast a curse on me!!!" crap that gets discussed ad infinitum over at .PS.

When, as we all know, shit happens.

To a certain extent I'm inclined to agree with F. W. Nietzsche, who stated "That which does not kill us makes us stronger." Though I'd be inclined to add the caveat "...IF we let it." The more poetic version of this is an aphorism I've used before:

"The iron does not love the anvil."

[pt_tangles]

It was in the section on Karma at the back. It just didn't seem to take very much into account other than opposition to the people who use karma as an excuse for inaction.

I like that quote about the iron, though. I'll have to remember that one.

--Phae

[pjvj.livejournal.com]

I see your mood is "drained" on this post. {{{{Phae}}}}

[pt_tangles]

Ah, it was 3am and I had been trying to sleep for about two hours. Insomnia sucks. But, I took some valerian, and had a REALLY good deep sleep, so I feel a lot better now.

Plus, it is sunny today :)

--Phae

[estaratshirai.livejournal.com]

Your problems are, in fact, very likely to attach to your karma in some way. (Maybe not retroactively. Maybe you're paying in advance. How should I know?) That said, it is not by any means imperative for me to point the fact out to you, and in fact the contrary is more likely to be true. Helping you is good mojo for me whether or not you "deserve" your trouble, and being a jerk to you is bad either way, for my own character if nothing else.

And like you said...maybe the universe doesn't actually revolve around me. Gasp!

[droops.livejournal.com]

BTW, great post and some great responses. I've learned something today. Now whether I take it to heart or not is a different story.